--- Log opened Sun May 08 00:00:52 2011
04:13 < mcallan> conseo: yes, if you're testing on the client side then voteTrace should work. actually use voteTraceProjected if it's not null, otherwise use voteTrace.
06:22 < conseo> mcallan: i cannot really test, since my instance does not contain the votetraces...
06:23 < conseo> mcallan: it should work, but what you see on my side is the fallback to alphabetical sorting
06:28 < mcallan> conseo: the vote trace will be there if you switch to map V.  but on 2nd thought, don't depend on it yet. the structure of the trace has changed. i'll commit the code shortly, and explain how you can ensure the trace is always present.
06:31 < conseo> ok
06:32 < conseo> have you seen my mail to the list?
06:32 < mcallan> i forgot to read mail this morning.  will read soon...
06:35 < conseo> ok, because i like the idea of pointing the the bite's title to the difference and each mnemonic to the position, i think the poll definition is to generic to be of real interest in a discussion (you will find it from the diff and the positions
06:35 < conseo> )
06:36 < conseo> also do you have a color spectrum sheme for me to use (have a look at ColorHelper.java)
06:36 < conseo> ?
06:46 < mcallan> conseo: a suggestion: draw mock ups before coding the visuals, and post them for discussion.  it's too expensive to just wing it in the code. back in a few minutes. should i still look at colour code?
06:49 < conseo> no, you could tell me how to do the coloring in a distinctive way 
06:49 < conseo> i don't think it is a good idea to use the same spectrum for the title and the users
06:49 < conseo> it would make sense to seperate them visually a bit more
06:50 < conseo> about the mockups: yep, but you have done it already and i thought there was a consensus about the bubble layout...
06:50 < conseo> i think it is pretty perfect 
06:51 < conseo> even my sister immediately recognizes speech bubbles
06:51 < conseo> and we don't need to tell about persons or details then
07:08 < mcallan> conseo: the only mockup i've seen (aside from Alex's) is mine.  it has only one colour for diff bites.  i'm catching up on my inbox...
07:18 < mcallan> conseo: i still think you should debug the mockup and not the code.  much faster that way.  the layout etc. is up to you, ofc.  i'll add my 2 kopeks to the list shortly, in reply.  but if since u ask me, this is still my favourite: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/a/crossforum/vote/_/3.xht
07:19 < mcallan> i think the best colour is no colour at all, except where it is absolutely needed
07:39 < conseo> ok
07:39 < conseo> do you think it makes sense for the mnemonics?
07:42 < mcallan> for me it's always easiest to do the simplest thing, and get it done.  then i look at my list of priorities, and there's usually other urgent things to work on.  once we have a working prototype (in a few weeks?) then we can start to use it in real world.  at that point if additional info (such as colour cues) is the #1 usability issue, then we can add it.  that
07:42 < mcallan> (sry) ... that's what i figure, anyway.
07:45 < mcallan> so i'd strip and down to bare minimum (no colour except selection highlight) and keep moving forward - if it were up to me
07:50 < mcallan> and it's not just for speed.  imho the most elegant tools are simple and straightforward. they don't call attention to themselves. they just do the job.
07:50 < conseo> ok
07:52 < mcallan> the job here is to show people talking. anything that detracts from that is probably a mistake.
07:52 < mcallan> it's more than just talking, but you have the maps too.
07:53 < mcallan> they show the who, where, why and so forth of the talking
07:53 < mcallan> but talking (in all its aspects) is everything
07:54 < mcallan> (shut up mike,a nd get back to work)
07:59 < mcallan> thomasvonderelbe: i did the blues for u, and other minor improvements: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/a/crossforum/vote/_/1.xht
07:59 < mcallan> (see 1, 2, 3.xht)
08:13 < thomasvonderelbe> hi guys!
08:13 < thomasvonderelbe> mcallan: yeah Mike, I like this much more!
08:14 < thomasvonderelbe> both: the colour and the "))"
08:14 < thomasvonderelbe> cool
08:14 < mcallan> hi t, it's bluer than blue (almost). refresh maybe, i widened the ))
08:16 < thomasvonderelbe> conseo: reading your above conversation, I'm starting to agree with Mike, that maybe no colours are best for now. I guess he is right, that they distract attention from the bubbles themselves.
08:17 < mcallan> thomasvonderelbe: i was going to ask you, tell c he doesn't have to listen to me.  he can code it however he likes.
08:18 < thomasvonderelbe> mcallan: I like the blue much better, but the former blue I liked the most
08:19 < thomasvonderelbe> well, you told him now! :-)
08:19 < mcallan> he doesn't listen to me. ;-)  you mean the blue flood in c's old diff bites?
08:21 < thomasvonderelbe> conseo: Mike wants me to tell you, that you dont have to listen to him on this! I would like to add: you never have to listen to him!!! But he has some smart ideas once in while! ;-) 
08:22 < thomasvonderelbe> mcallan: yes, the colour of it.
08:23 < thomasvonderelbe> its the same like in the current metagov-crossforum, right?
08:23 < thomasvonderelbe> its a slightly differnt blue, I'd say.
08:23 < mcallan> i think the colour depended on the poll name: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/a/crossforum/vote/_/1.xht
08:24 < mcallan> (refresh)
08:24 < thomasvonderelbe> I mean the colour around the first bubble: http://metagovernment.tuxfamily.org/crossforum/#c=DG
08:28 < mcallan> hit refresh: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/a/crossforum/vote/_/1.xht
08:28 < mcallan> something close to that. more blue, but not quite pure, and brighter
08:30 < mcallan> it's too bright imho, and the heavy solid fill clashes with the outline bubbles.  it's hard to do fill on a black background, problematic
08:31 < mcallan> but the old one isn't perfect either.
08:32 < thomasvonderelbe> from the last three versions, the first was best imo 
08:33 < thomasvonderelbe> and closest to Conseos
08:33 < thomasvonderelbe> maybe even identical, so I should have kept my mouth shut
08:33 < thomasvonderelbe> ??
08:35 < mcallan> best if it looks the same as all other bubbles, then plus something.  it should not be solid and the others empty
08:36 < mcallan> details, the user will be able to choose his own colours later.  but it's up to c.  listen to thomas c, don't listen to me.
08:39 < thomasvonderelbe> you took it back to the first blue version. yes, this is good!
08:40 < mcallan> thomasvonderelbe: (same blue as yesterday!) i am nearly done dart scoping, and can maybe statrt coding first circle tomorrow
08:40 < thomasvonderelbe> sorry for the fuss!
08:40 < thomasvonderelbe> ah cool!
08:42 < mcallan> you take this thomas, and show c what blue (and everything) you like: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/a/crossforum/vote/VotespaceV.svg
08:43 < mcallan> but you don't have to listen to him, c ;-)
08:44 < mcallan> (except sometimes he has good ideas)
08:45 < mcallan> once in a blue moon ;-)
08:46 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, it did happen once or twice! :-)
08:47 < mcallan> cross-project cooperation, vote mirroring, vote circles, ... exact shades of blue.
08:49 < thomasvonderelbe> lol
09:18 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: yep mike definetly has smart ideas and i like listening to him
09:19 < conseo> i wish i could work with him on this all day... hopefully we can get something started together
09:22 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: and you of course as well
09:23 < conseo> so to summarize that i have understood you and the mockups correctly
09:23 < conseo> a) remove the title
09:23 < conseo> b) remove the colors from the mnemonics
09:24 < conseo> c) work on highlighting only the bubble
09:25 < thomasvonderelbe> hm b and c: yes!
09:25 < thomasvonderelbe> but a? can we really get so simple?
09:26 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: i would like to link the title to the difference bridge
09:26 < thomasvonderelbe> maybe put the title inside the bubble?
09:26 < conseo> it is(?)
09:27 < conseo> it is the diff-feed, so the central information about the conversation is imo the difference
09:27 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, I liked that too, but I get the feeling its confusing for the user to click on the title and come to the diff-bridge
09:27 < mcallan> (no title is simplest. no title, no problem)
09:27 < conseo> hmmm
09:28 < thomasvonderelbe> maybe it should at least say "poll-title"-diff
09:28 < thomasvonderelbe> as long as the user is not zoomed a single poll, the poll-name itself seems relevant, doesnt it?
09:29 < mcallan> not relevant to the message: these are people talking
09:29 < conseo> well ideally the diff-feed will only show the information relevant to the difference discussion and nothing else
09:29 < mcallan> only show (imho) "people are talking"
09:30 < conseo> as you have put it, we can visualize details and context much better on the map
09:30 < conseo> that is why i have preferred visualizing polls on the geomap and not drafters
09:30 < conseo> but we can have both of course
09:30 < conseo> (it is even configurable already)
09:31 < mcallan> (yes we need to see poll divisions etc on geomap, and i agree both are needed people+poll)
09:31 < thomasvonderelbe> it was not me who put it like this, but it sounds interesting.
09:32 < thomasvonderelbe> could we really only show the talk left and the poll-name right?
09:32 < thomasvonderelbe> why not, right?
09:32 < mcallan> for poll title, if no title causes a *problem*, then it will be interesting to discuss why.
09:33 < mcallan> but yes, i'd let the problem surface first
09:33 < thomasvonderelbe> lol
09:33 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: as long as the poll is also associated to real places (which it should always be, even in global cases it will be relevant to  some places directly)
09:33 < thomasvonderelbe> funny way to ask!
09:33 < conseo> it will show up on the map on these places/areas then
09:34 < mcallan> and user does not need full info, as long as interface is explorable
09:34 < conseo> mcallan: divisions are not unique, you can define more then one for a poll right?
09:34 < thomasvonderelbe> ok, I get it. if each bubble is out of a different poll it either shows up on the geomap or in the center of the socialmap
09:34 < mcallan> yes c, multiple divs are possible
09:35 < conseo> mcallan: yep, esp. since the geomapper is rather for exploring then for vote-space browsing
09:36 < thomasvonderelbe> ok, then i'd vote for the simplest version without titles
09:36 < conseo> ok cleaned up: http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/#c=DG
09:38 < mcallan> cool.  we type in here, and stuff comes out there :-)
09:40 < thomasvonderelbe> but since the users are shown in the feed already, their positions could be linked there too, or not?
09:40 < conseo> mcallan: :-D
09:41 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: i have to change the db layout for that again :-/, but yep
09:41 < conseo> still i think the diff-url would be better
09:41 < thomasvonderelbe> a few things are still hard for me to imagine, e.g. how a diff will be linked from the social map. if its easy from the map its not necessary from the feed, otherwise vice versa
09:42 < mcallan> since it's about talk, i would start by linking to the full discussion.  other linkages should wait till we have full working version.  imho
09:42 < conseo> ok
09:42 < conseo> so leave it that way?
09:42 < conseo> only link to discussion medium?
09:43 < mcallan> (i say yes, for starters. if it's a problem, let it surface...)
09:44 < conseo> ok
09:44 < thomasvonderelbe> but in any case: c) work on highlighting only the bubble, right?
09:45 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: i will try to figure that out next
09:45 < thomasvonderelbe> :-)
09:45 < conseo> not really interesting, but i guess you are right, it has to be done
09:45 < conseo> mcallan: do you use firebug?
09:46 < mcallan> yes
09:46 < conseo> kk, it is pretty cool
09:47 < mcallan> yes, tho soetimes i have to use chrome to zero in on bugs. firebug sometimes doesn't catch them in an intelligible way. nor sometimes does chrome.
09:48 < conseo> by collecting money for the price you stumbled about the issue of drafting this correctly and thomas has mentioned that i am interested in that problem
09:48 < conseo> mcallan: my idea is to allow an area on the position page where you can define what your vote really means to you
09:48 < mcallan> (i 2nd thomas though, my own choice wd be to highlight bubble)
09:48 < conseo> e.g. working hours, money, sympathy or anyhting else
09:49 < mcallan> ah ok
09:49 < conseo> i think we can solve the formalism problem here, since you can then use any formula to calculate and collect data to decide and drive the drafting process further
09:50 < conseo> mcallan: but this area on the position page would be bound to your vote, so it might never be patched in the draft
09:50 < mcallan> (agree, it's not necessarily only votes that turn the decision clockwork at the center)
09:50 < conseo> otherwise when you change votes your personal engagement will flow around
09:51 < conseo> and you well have left-overs with old candidates (or they have to hand clean their position, which is pretty much impossible in larger polls)
09:51 < conseo> mcallan: is it possible to exclude parts of the position page from the diff-patching process?
09:51 < conseo> i mean atm. possible
09:52 < mcallan> yes
09:52 < conseo> cool
09:52 < mcallan> http://u.zelea.com/w/Category:Draft
09:53 < conseo> mcallan: my idea is that i will take a vote-count then and allow to walk the tree and collect all the details about the votes and then compare that at the end in a mapper (likely a dedicated one i guess)
09:53 < conseo> compare it to the draft
09:53 < conseo> (s)
09:54 < mcallan> it's too big a topic for chat i fear, i will be free tomorrow to skype, if you are also free.
09:55 < conseo> got courses tomorrow, depends on time
09:56 < mcallan> ok, whenever you are free next. i'm tied for today because it's mother's day
09:59 < conseo> oh ok, i am out of this business :-)
10:01 < mcallan> ah, it's earlier here.  and it isn't raining for a change. :-)  so we're heading out.
10:02 < conseo> i mean i have pulled out of the mother day's business and in general out of the family business where i could
10:02 < conseo> depends on family, but i don't like these institutionalized holidays
10:04 < conseo> mcallan: ok, enjoy the day. wheather is insane here, it is very warm and dry for over a month now and we start to get problems in agriculture
10:05 < conseo> what do you think about showing mailish-username on mouseover of the mnemonic as alex has suggested?
10:05 < mcallan> thanks c.  i wish i could send u some of our rain...
10:06 < mcallan> thomas (was i thomas?) suggested that earlier
10:06 < conseo> :-)
10:07 < mcallan> i guess, again, it's a detail... no need to decide yet
10:07 < conseo> i hope this is not going to get worse in the next years, because there is already a trend for the month may
10:07 < conseo> mcallan: well, but it does not harm, right?
10:08 < conseo> mcallan: btw. where have you put the mailish-username -> mnemonic parsing for the crossforum code?
10:10 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: have you thought about the economics stuff we talked about last time?
10:10 < conseo> any new ideas?
10:10 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, I have
10:10 < thomasvonderelbe> both
10:10 < conseo> cotw (ping tropology) might be interested for that when it comes to their alternative production development
10:10 < mcallan> it's here c, you have this? http://zelea.com/project/votorola/_/javadoc/votorola/a/ACross.html
10:11 < thomasvonderelbe> wait, I try to find it
10:12 < tropology> :)
10:12 < conseo> mcallan: yep
10:12 < mcallan> ok. i'm off guys. see u soon
10:12 < conseo> tropology: what is your status? 
10:13 < conseo> have you build up parts of the cotw infrastructure already and what do you need?
10:13 < tropology> just catching up here - but generally in disarray :D
10:13 < tropology> we're regrouping right now, it seems we overheated
10:13 < tropology> bbl
10:14 < conseo> tropology: ok
10:14 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: do you have some time to skype?
10:16 < thomasvonderelbe> conseo: sorry, no. I have to leave here in a couple minutes
10:16 < thomasvonderelbe> but I have found it: http://opencapitalist.org/content/detailed-open-source-project-creation
10:16 < conseo> ok
10:16 < thomasvonderelbe> it connects very much with your idea
10:17 < thomasvonderelbe> only it sits in the centre of the desicion-mechanism
10:17 < thomasvonderelbe> so its complemetary to ours
10:18 < thomasvonderelbe> i'd like to talk to you about this later ...
10:19 < thomasvonderelbe> cu later guys!
10:19 < conseo> ok, cu later
17:20 < conseo> mcallan: have you got my mail with the authors of introduction to algorithms?
--- Log closed Mon May 09 00:00:07 2011