--- Log opened Mon Apr 25 00:00:00 2011
07:02 < conseo> ok
08:53 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: ping
09:06 < thomasvonderelbe> conseo: pong
09:07 < conseo> it might make sense to translate the theory stuff of votorola into german as well
09:07 < conseo> or any other language
09:08 < conseo> and a second thought is that we might want to do a german "verein" for the spread of votorola
09:08 < thomasvonderelbe> uouuhh
09:08 < conseo> :-D
09:08 < thomasvonderelbe> the translation will be a huge job
09:08 < conseo> yep, the problem is that mike's current site setup is not made for it
09:08 < conseo> it is hand written html
09:08 < thomasvonderelbe> i have been thinking about this kind of stuff also because of the slide-show for V.
09:09 < thomasvonderelbe> but I get the feeling, that with the crossforum we will soon have something, which explains more by itself then a thousand words or pics could
09:10 < thomasvonderelbe> what do you think?
09:10 < conseo> i think that sth. like votorola.org with crossforum as the homepage and links to theory and background is a good idea
09:10 < conseo> well, maybe, but voting is still a new and abstract concept and we want to have the theoretical background available imo, to attract new thinkers
09:11 < conseo> if we have a democratical organisation (like a verein), then we can also organize the hosting stuff with the newly interested admins
09:11 < conseo> like ryan
09:12 < thomasvonderelbe> Jason, which we wrote emails with seems to also like votorola.org idea
09:12 < conseo> atm. tech people can do little besides programming
09:12 < thomasvonderelbe> did you read his mails
09:12 < thomasvonderelbe> sorry, I meant Ryan
09:13 < conseo> yep
09:13 < thomasvonderelbe> so you read my last mail and you take a clear side
09:14 < conseo> translation is boring, but we might find contributors for that more easily than for programming and it could lower the bar to become attracted
09:14 < thomasvonderelbe> thats true
15:27 < conseo> mcallan: ping
16:06 < mcallan> conseo: pong
16:21 < conseo> mcallan: can u pull and rebuild the harvester?
16:21 < mcallan> yes, when do u need it?
16:22 < conseo> i have fixed mime-multi-part parsing
16:22 < conseo> because some messages got lost, so maybe you could also move all messages into new again and the i'll restart the init-script
16:23 < conseo> some messages of thomas got lost, because he uses html-messages
16:23 < mcallan> ok, i'll move them before restarting. pulling...
16:23 < conseo> ok, cool
16:23 < conseo> move all, since some old messages were also missing
16:24 < mcallan> ok, all messages
16:24 < conseo> at least since february
16:27 < conseo> mcallan: is the homepage translatable? i mean theory and docs...
16:31 < mcallan> ...hang on. did you modify theatre app?
16:31 < mcallan> no eh?
16:31 < conseo> ehm, nope
16:32 < mcallan> ok...
16:33 < mcallan> you mean d/theory.xht?
16:35 < mcallan> conseo: whoops
16:36 < mcallan> if forgot the mail folder.  i'll restart...
16:36 < mcallan> *i*
16:38 < conseo> ok no prob
16:39 < mcallan> still parsing...
16:40 < mcallan> well, done.
16:41 < mcallan> home page sucks, otherwise i guess it's translatable ;-)
16:43 < conseo> hmm, crossforum is almost empty (?)
16:44 < conseo> is your table "diff_messages" filled?
16:45 < mcallan> hmmm, so it is.
16:45 < conseo> it is empty?
16:46 < conseo> sh*t
16:46 < mcallan> *i*
16:48 < mcallan> not empty, i asked for 1o rows and got em
16:48 < mcallan> only 24 rows
16:53 < conseo> well without irc, i got 26
16:53 < conseo> but the multipart messages are now in crossforum
16:55 < mcallan> you now have sudo access to all commands as v
16:55 < mcallan> conseo: so you can do: sudo -u v psql
16:58 < mcallan> and move/edit files etc., i assume
16:59 < conseo> ok
16:59 < mcallan> but if you modify config (except for testing) let me know
16:59 < mcallan> else it may get overwritten. config is exact copy from my dev box
17:02 < conseo> oki
17:02 < mcallan> conseo: it's not empty anymore
17:03 < conseo> no, it seems to work
17:03 < mcallan> we forgot about the delay
17:04 < conseo> yep, but with me it hasn't updated the parsed timestamp, so the old ones had no delay
17:04 < conseo> more confusing is that the select statement has a very weird output in between for me
17:05 < conseo> any hint for me, where that could come from? it doesn't fit in any column, right?
17:06 < conseo> ok, i got it too, i will try to find out
17:07 < mcallan> this is what i get: http://zelea.com/var/tmp-public/c.txt
17:10 < conseo> don't do limit 1 and you will see some text cluttered in between lines
17:10 < conseo> i can't see it in the ui of pgadmin, but i can also see it on my dev server with psql
17:12 < mcallan> i can't easily copy many rows (don't know how) but here's 2: http://zelea.com/var/tmp-public/c.txt
17:19 < conseo> ok
17:21 < mcallan> conseo: yes, now i see what you mean.  i get the same thing.  many lines of spaces, with a few chars: http://zelea.com/var/tmp-public/c.txt
17:22 < conseo> weird bug
19:26 < conseo> mcallan: i have fixed it. can u pull and rebuild, so i drop the table, move the messages and restart the voharvester thereafter?
19:27 < mcallan> ok. you can stop it now, if you want. pulling...
19:33 < mcallan> conseo: ready, you can restart
19:33 < conseo> there is no setFolder() for the maildirHarvesterCC in your voharvester.js (?)
19:33 < conseo> where does it get the mails from?
19:34 < mcallan> see pollserver.jsm
19:35 < conseo> ok
19:35 < conseo> i can not enter the .mail dir
19:35 < mcallan> (i guess id)
19:35 < mcallan> sorry
19:36 < mcallan> moment...
19:37 < mcallan> unless you can do something with sudo -u v ...
19:38 < mcallan> works?
19:38 < mcallan> i think you do *anything* as v
19:39 < mcallan> should work
19:47 < mcallan> go baby go!
19:48 < mcallan> done
19:48 < conseo> fixed
19:49 < mcallan> Feed request failed: com.google.gwt.jsonp.client.TimeoutException: Timeout while calling http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/xfDiff?form=json&since=0. Ready to retry.
19:50 < mcallan> conseo: confirm
19:51 < conseo> yep
19:51 < conseo> confirm
19:51 < conseo> worked for me without restart of tomcat
19:52 < mcallan> ah tomcat, ofc...
19:52 < mcallan> interesting, because it creates the table instance once
19:53 < mcallan> conseo: i'll restart tom
19:54 < conseo> ok
19:56 < mcallan> it's doing it's delay. but this works: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/xfDiff?form=json&since=0&pretty=y
19:56 < mcallan> will new users always see such a long delay? no eh?
19:57 < conseo> oh, ok, missed port 8080
20:00 < conseo> xfbot: help
20:00 < xfbot> xfbot is CrossForumBot 0.1 for http://metagovernment.tuxfamily.org/crossforum/
20:00 < xfbot> xfbot COMMAND parameters # comment
20:00 < xfbot> xfbot CHANNELS # channels being monitored
20:00 < xfbot> xfbot TIME # current time of the bot
20:00 < xfbot> xfbot INVITE channel # invite temporarily
20:03 < conseo> http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4268&a=4203&aR=2885&bR=2854 Mike, don't you think that the proposed formula should be sufficient to get some experiences?
20:03 < xfbot> POLL: G/p/m00
20:03 < xfbot> AUTHOR: 4consensus WebDe
20:03 < xfbot> POSURL: http://metagovernment.org/w/index.php?oldid=2885
20:04 < conseo> Or do you believe that only one-level consensus oriented drafting takes full advantage of out vote-space?
20:05 < conseo> (no majority rules to impose changes)
20:07 < mcallan> it's hard to talk about details of formula, unless we're rough agreement as to the rule
20:09 < mcallan> what's all that stuff about "modification of this ruleset"?  why are we talking about that?
20:11  * mcallan feels like a guinea pig
20:12 < conseo> because otherwise i can remove consensus from the ruleset and you then cannot change the homepage anymore
20:12 < conseo> äßer€ is @zuém
20:13 < mcallan> what is that ^ ?
20:16 < conseo> äßer€ is @zuém
20:16 < conseo> escape test :-p
20:16 < conseo> äßer€ is @zuém
20:16 < mcallan> ok. "and you then cannot change the homepage anymore"  That does not follow.
20:16 < mcallan> like saying consensus on home page dissolves, so home page disappears.
20:16 < conseo> well, because for me the ruleset does not apply anymore, i can start an edit war
20:17 < conseo> ok
20:17 < mcallan> no you can't. rule set applies till replaced by new ruleset
20:17 < mcallan> that's always true. goes without saying.
20:18 < conseo> you mean there are unique polls?
20:18 < conseo> i don't really get where the problem is atm.
20:19 < mcallan> one poll, many decisions.
20:19 < mcallan> or no decisions
20:19 < mcallan> one poll for foreign policy. but policy can change
20:20 < mcallan> many foreign policies over a period of fifty years. many decisions to adopt policy, or not. but one poll.
20:21 < mcallan> anyway, none of these complexities come up to confuse us, if we Keep It Simple Students
20:21 < conseo> ok, i am not sure if this is always possible
20:22 < mcallan> it is currently possible
20:22 < mcallan> once we agree roughly on the rule, then we can agree on all the complicated details
20:23 < conseo> unless we can't change the rule by consent anymore
20:24 < conseo> if the rule is bound to 100% consent, then one drafter can already block all changes
20:24 < conseo> or better one voter
20:24 < mcallan> the rule is not so bound
20:24 < mcallan> it's a non-issue
20:25 < conseo> it is a poll(?)
20:25 < mcallan> you were assuming that the rule for how to change the home page, was also a rule for how to change the rule.  not true.
20:25 < conseo> and what do you propose for that rule for the rule?
20:26 < mcallan> nothing
20:26 < mcallan> hence no problem
20:26 < mcallan> the problem was to change the home page.  we lost sight of that, and now it feels like it's never going to happen.
20:28 < conseo> ok, i am with you
20:28 < mcallan> really?
20:28 < mcallan> vote for me, and i'll do my best to make it move forward
20:29 < mcallan> move forward in any direction, i don't care
20:29 < conseo> done
20:29 < mcallan> ha! now i love politics again!
20:29 < conseo> if it becomes a deadlock, people can simply decide to start again
20:29 < conseo> :D
20:30 < conseo> i also don't have a problem to bend that way (while in other situations i often have)
20:30 < conseo> the tools feel good
20:30 < mcallan> (sorry thomas, we're taking over this boat!)
20:30 < mcallan> :-)
20:30 < conseo> hehe
20:30 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: btw. your mails show up in crossforum now, too
20:30 < conseo> not only a few of them
20:31 < conseo> mcallan: i cannot trigger a pull and a rebuild with you, right?
20:31 < conseo> this would be too much
20:32 < mcallan> rebuild v?
20:32 < conseo> don't mind, i don't want to mess with your setup
20:32 < conseo> not my business
20:32 < conseo> fixes can wait until i tell you to pull and rebuild usually
20:33 < mcallan> i pull from you whenever i have a clean repo, usually every 4 days or so
20:37 < conseo> ok
20:42 < mcallan> conseo: if there are problems with how we pull and deploy, let me know.  we'll try and sort them out.  i'd have no problem with you rebuilding v, but the setup could get complicated.  maybe best to do only what's need.
20:42 < conseo> +1
20:49 < conseo> i am off for today
20:49 < conseo> n8
20:49 < mcallan> n8, cu soon
--- Log closed Tue Apr 26 00:00:15 2011