--- Log opened Tue Apr 12 00:00:03 2011
05:47 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: re
14:14 -!- MarkDilley_ is now known as MarkDilley
15:34 < conseo> hey guys
15:34 < mcallan> hey c
16:36 < conseo> mcallan: the problem with your approach imo, is that no radius for the candidates will be sufficient, since two different hashes can map to an arbitrarily small angle
16:36 < conseo> you can avoid drawing the name then, but this might work out bad it some cases
17:15 < mcallan> conseo: but how else can we do it?
17:23 < conseo> don't know, i am thinking. today i thought that we might be able to bend space
17:24 < mcallan> bend it to avoid collisions?
17:24 < conseo> to keep positions stable and let the client use the space model to visualize then
17:25 < conseo> this might give a continuous behaviour and still allow us to use space optimally
17:26 < conseo> but i am not a physicists
17:28 < mcallan> i'm not sure, does this solve the problem of animation speed?  i just posted in reply to thomas.  (his last post has an interesting idea)
17:29 < conseo> it might. i'll talk to friend of mine (who is a physicist) during the next days
17:32 < conseo> mcallan: besides the possible near collisions your approach looks good so far
17:33 < mcallan> ok, thanks c.  we'll be drawing mock for a while, so there is plenty of time to float new ideas.
17:33 < mcallan> *mockups*
17:33 < conseo> ok
17:34 < conseo> i am still catching up with my longa-go math-expertise... so it might take me some time to be able to make a good proposal
17:34 < conseo> this friend of mine already has votorola and eclipse set up (from me) and is interested in what we do. i hope he'll be able to contribute with thoughts a bit once he has his final exam tomorrow
17:35 < mcallan> he does?!
17:38 < conseo> he has the code setup (not an instance)
17:39 < conseo> he has no java experience yet and i don't know if he will be contributing, but he might help with the votespace thoughts (hopefully)
17:39 < conseo> i cannot promise anything
17:39 < mcallan> ah, ok.  tell him, good luck on his exam.
17:41 < conseo> i'll do :-)
17:42 < conseo> thx
17:46 < The_User> hi
17:47 < The_User> conseo told me to think about http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2011-April/003819.html :D
17:53 < conseo> mcallan: if we scope by different "dimensions", position in the tree and time, wouldn't it make sense then to allow multiple scopers/mappers?
17:53 < conseo> mcallan:  we have talked about this before, but i am not sure how you imagine steering the time axis
17:56 < conseo> because we can also have a time axis in the DG combination for example (and only fetch bites from a certain time interval)
17:57 < The_User> okay, my suggestion: place the nodes deterministically, e.g. using first free position or something like that
17:58 < The_User> when a node is removed, save the current time
17:59 < The_User> and the slot stays blocked
17:59 < The_User> (it may come back)
17:59 < The_User> when a node comes back, it should get its old place
17:59 < The_User> when there are no more free slots
18:00 < The_User> the oldest free block should be filled
18:00 < The_User> slot
18:00 < The_User> I mean that one with the smallest timestamp
18:01 < The_User> when all slots are filled, a new circlet could be added
18:01 < The_User> so there would be few circlets most time
18:01 < The_User> and only very few changes of positions
18:02 < The_User> you could also start with two circlets and add one or two each time
18:02 < The_User> that would increase the average number of circles
18:02 < The_User> and decrease the average number of moves
18:03 < The_User> but everything would be properly aligned all the time
18:03 < The_User> of course you could still choose positions randomly
18:05 < conseo> mcallan: have you thought about this scenario? 
18:05 < conseo> is this compatible with the tree?
18:08 < The_User> instead of using circlets the size could be decreased
18:09 < The_User> size of node represanti
18:09 < The_User> ation
18:09 < The_User> or they could start overlapping by adding 1/2 slots
18:09 < mcallan> The_User: I think your idea is a good one!  Thomas proposed something similar, just a short while ago: http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2011-April/003824.html
18:09 < The_User> if you do not like “inner” and “outer” circlets
18:10 < conseo> The_User: once i mention a difference url in this chat as monitored by xfbot like this http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4198&a=4203&aR=2867&bR=2874 it will show up ten mins later here: http://metagovernment.tuxfamily.org/crossforum/#c=DG 
18:10 < mcallan> but we will never have more than 20 voters (something you couldn't know) so there is enough space
18:10 < xfbot> POLL: G/p/m00
18:10 < xfbot> AUTHOR: 4consensus WebDe
18:10 < xfbot> POSURL: http://metagovernment.org/w/index.php?oldid=2867
18:11 < The_User> conseo: why couldnt there be more than 20 voters?
18:12 < mcallan> never more than 20 per candidate, here: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/Votespace?u=Test-a-ZeleaCom&p=G!p!sandbox
18:12 < mcallan> *immediate* voters
18:13 < mcallan> the rest (the mosquitoes) are dismissed as "others"
18:14 < The_User> hmm, I cannot find any information about it at zelea.com:8080/…
18:15 < conseo> mcallan: why 20?
18:15 < The_User> however, it would still be nice to reserve the slots as long as possible, somebody may come back after few days and he would like to get his old seat
18:15 < The_User> but, yes, why 20? :D
18:15 < mcallan> The_User: strange, the URL did not work?  try 2nd link here: http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2011-April/003819.html
18:16 < mcallan> The_User: yes, your idea of reservation is a good one.
18:16 < mcallan> otherwise we may get structural shift for no good reason.
18:16 < The_User> hmm, I just see a tree there
18:17 < mcallan> the tree never has more than 20 immediate voters
18:17 < The_User> well, why? :D
18:17 < mcallan> because it never needs to
18:17 < mcallan> if you are voter 21 (in rank) you are voting in the wrong place
18:18 < mcallan> there is a limit to how many voters a candidate can talk to
18:18 < mcallan> i don't know if the limit is 20, but we chose that #
18:18 < The_User> and that limit is 20?
18:18 < mcallan> yes
18:18 < mcallan> (so we say)
18:18 < The_User> hehe
18:18 < The_User> why is there such a limit?
18:18 < mcallan> communicative reasons
18:20 < mcallan> to avoid mass voting: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/d/theory.xht#gn-mass-assent
18:20 < mcallan> rather, we aim to support *communicative* voting, and we are not interested in whether we do a good job at *mass* voting
18:21 < The_User> well, but some voting-processes may take more time than other ones, and in a longer time-interval it is possible to communicate with more voters etc.
18:22 < The_User> and in other voting processes there might have been no communication between 17/20 voters
18:23 < conseo> mcallan: wouldn't a lack in communication automatically disqualify a candidate?
18:23 < conseo> and reduce his voters?
18:24 < mcallan> yes, unless they weren't interested in substansive particpation
18:24 < mcallan> you gotta talk, or you have no say
18:24 < The_User> conseo: you are measuring the amount of communication?
18:24 < mcallan> conseo is!
18:25 < mcallan> guys, I am going for a run.  before i lose the light...
18:25 < conseo> hehe ok
18:25 < The_User> mcallan: what time is it?
18:25 < conseo> xfbot: time
18:25 < xfbot> conseo: The time is now Tue Apr 12 18:25:41 EDT 2011
18:25 < mcallan> ha! cu in a while
18:26 < conseo> cu
18:26 < The_User> cu
18:26 < The_User> conseo: xfbot's time = mcallan's time?
18:26 < conseo> yep
18:26 < conseo> the server is running in his basement :-)
18:27 < conseo> The_User: and there the message is: http://metagovernment.tuxfamily.org/crossforum/#c=DG
18:27 < conseo> :-D
18:28 < conseo> and i got encoding problems in the chat log :-/
18:30 < The_User> which projection is used for the map?
18:31 < The_User> conseo: mercator?
18:31 < conseo> i think so
18:31 < conseo> mcallan: told me so i think
18:31 < conseo> why?
18:32 < The_User> because (ant)arctica look very stretched
18:32 < The_User> like mercator :D
18:33 < conseo> hehe yep
18:33 < The_User> compared it to wikipedia's mercator-image
18:33 < The_User> looks quite similiar
18:33 < conseo> mercator is not perfect, yet my brother also had to learn it for his pilot eduction
18:38 < The_User> conseo: ah, you have a brother :D
18:39 < conseo> yep
18:39 < conseo> and a sister
18:40 < conseo> you have a brother, right?
18:47 < The_User> yes
18:47 < The_User> I may have told you, don't know^^
18:47 < The_User> good night btw
18:48 < conseo> good night!
--- Log closed Wed Apr 13 00:00:18 2011