--- Log opened Sat Mar 26 00:00:23 2011
--- Log closed Sat Mar 26 17:17:56 2011
--- Log opened Sat Mar 26 17:17:56 2011
--- Log closed Sat Mar 26 17:20:31 2011
--- Log opened Sat Mar 26 17:20:31 2011
17:21 < mcallan> conseo: ping
17:21 < mcallan> thomasvonderelbe: ping
17:55 < conseo> mcallan: pong
17:58 < mcallan> a proposal c: vote for ed, and i'll vote for you: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/Votespace?u=Ed-EdpastoreCom&p=G!p!mho
18:02 < conseo> mcallan: done
18:03 < mcallan> done: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/Activity
18:04 < mcallan> i was disconnected from freenode for about 12 hours (since we last spoke) did i miss anything?
18:04 < conseo> don't think so
18:04 < conseo> or better: no
18:04 < conseo> ;-)
18:05 < conseo> mcallan: now thomas votes for me (?)
18:05 < mcallan> he already was. still is.
18:06 < conseo> ok, but you haven't voted for me yet?
18:07 < mcallan> yes i have: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/Activity
18:07 < mcallan> you won't see it in votespace till the next count
18:07 < mcallan> (i can't see yours either)
18:09 < mcallan> here, i'll force a count...
18:09 < conseo> ok, this is what it looked now http://img832.imageshack.us/i/snapshot3e.png/
18:10 < conseo> it still looks that way after refreshing
18:10 < conseo> anything else i have to do to see your vote?
18:11 < mcallan> u have to wait for the count, i just forced one...
18:11 < mcallan> u can only see your own vote shifts (it fakes them for u, so u have a sense of feedback)
18:12 < conseo> ok, that makes sense
18:12 < conseo> now it works
18:13 < mcallan> the votespace u are looking at is the fully traced tree as of last count. counts are every 4 hours, currently. here they are: http://u.zelea.com/system/host/u/home/v/votorola/out/vocount/
18:16 < mcallan> now now it looks a little more like a tree. and there are other advantages for our purpose: http://metagovernment.org/w/index.php5?title=User%3AConseo%2Fdraft
18:20 < mcallan> u can deal with Ed ;)
18:21 < mcallan> i think we're in danger of stalling on the participation front, if we put all our eggs in the metagov basket. i'm going to plan other stuff, and bounce it off u guys when i have something sensible to propose.
18:22 < mcallan> get our ship in order.  give votorola a proper home page, and mailing list.  our window dressing looks like crap.
18:22 < mcallan> then strike out for users, et al.
18:27 < conseo> ok, have a look at trac then btw. looks like a nicely integrated bug tracker (with technical wiki and repo interface)
18:29 < mcallan> i was thinking more window dressing for non-techs. but trac is ok if you want to set it up. mind, we don't have any bugs to track...
18:30 < mcallan> ... just features to document
18:53 < mcallan> conseo: here's my plan.  see what u and thomas think:
18:54 < mcallan> |Get participants
18:54 < mcallan> |----------------
18:54 < mcallan> | =0 Preliminaries:
18:54 < mcallan> |     = research alternative software indeces/release sites
18:54 < mcallan> |         - sourceforge sucks
18:54 < mcallan> | =1 Quick-redact system manual
18:54 < mcallan> |     - drop voff and focus on v only
18:54 < mcallan> |     - factor architecture out of Votorola and into project Outcast
18:54 < mcallan> |         / http://zelea.com/project/outcast/
18:54 < mcallan> | =2 Quick-redact theory
18:54 < mcallan> |     - factor theory out of Votorola and into project Autonomy
18:54 < mcallan> |         / http://zelea.com/project/autonomy/
18:54 < mcallan> | =3 Redact home page
18:54 < mcallan> |     - via http://u.zelea.com/w/G/p/vohall
18:54 < mcallan> |     - strip down to bare essentials
18:54 < mcallan> |         - point to project resources
18:54 < mcallan> |         - point to how we differ from other e-dem projects
18:54 < mcallan> | =4 Cut an alpha 2 release of votorola
18:54 < mcallan> |     - hopefully someplace better than sourceforge
18:54 < mcallan> | =5 Survey for communities/crews that are ripe for participation
18:54 < mcallan> |     - aside from (in addition to) metagov
18:54 < mcallan> | =6 Plan the approach to them
18:54 < mcallan> |     - see also
18:54 < mcallan> |         / votorola.task: clearing entry paths
18:54 < mcallan> |         / http://groups.google.com/group/votorola/t/7143d64b6284e630
18:54 < mcallan> |         / http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2011-February/003635.html
18:54 < mcallan> | =7 Execute approach
18:54 < mcallan> |     - in parallel with metagov etc.
18:54 < mcallan> still have the light, i'm going for a run
21:21 < conseo> ok, sounds reasonable
21:21 < conseo> moving the pages to the pollwiki is a very nice step. i think this is the way to go
21:24 < conseo> mcallan: is this: http://zelea.com/project/autonomy/content.xht an academic project of yours?
21:32 < conseo> because i am interested in theory and we might cooperate on polls for areas of similiar interest in the wiki
21:32 < conseo> i think this drafting stuff is really awesome
21:54 < mcallan> conseo: we started some of the arch docs as polls last year, but it never gave us any advantage.  extra work.  if there's a disagreement that's causing problems, then i'd want to move it to a poll.  but not befor.  project autonomy is my thoughts on theory.  but i'm not documenting the arch or researching theory or anything right now, except what's needed to get users or other participants.
21:55 < mcallan> the "quick redacts" above are basically just moving docs out of votorola, where they don't belong.
22:08 < conseo> that is why i have proposed  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trac for technical stuff
22:15 < mcallan> u know me when it comes to software, i hate the stuff ;-) but if it solves a problem, then i'd look at using it.
22:15 < conseo> we need a bug tracker imo
22:15 < mcallan> we don't have bugs
22:15 < conseo> if not now, then very likely soon...
22:16 < conseo> :-)
22:16 < conseo> and then it won't hurt to set it up rather earlier than later
22:16 < mcallan> i think bug trackers *cause* bugs, that's my theory ;-)
22:16 < conseo> haha
22:17 < mcallan> it's true! wherever i see bug trackers, i see bugs
22:18 < conseo> but seriously i think we need one... don't you think?
22:20 < mcallan> not yet.  and don't tell me u have bugs, cause i'll know it's just a ploy to get a bug tracker.
22:20 < mcallan> (but u can set one up, if u like)
22:21 < mcallan> a guy from Alsace Lorraine set one up for us, but we only used it for 2 weeks
22:22 < mcallan> (we used it, and he didn't! go figure)
22:24 < conseo> :-)
22:26 < conseo> so you want to keep the docs in plain html format?
22:27 < mcallan> which docs?
22:27 < conseo> you said that you don't want them in the pollwiki and have them in the .xht file atm., right? like crossforum setup or the setup of a pollserver/wiki
22:29 < conseo> "Trac is an enhanced wiki and issue tracking system for software development projects. Trac uses a minimalistic approach to web-based software project management. Our mission is to help developers write great software while staying out of the way. Trac should impose as little as possible on a team's established development process and policies. "
22:29 < conseo> it is not a dumb bugtracker, that is why i am asking
22:29 < mcallan> ur other q - it's elegant if admin manuals ship with the code they pertain, too.  that's one advantage of keeping them in the repo.
22:30 < mcallan> "as little as possible", i like that!
22:30 < mcallan> ;)
22:30 < conseo> hehe
22:31 < conseo> now this leaves room for interpretation...
22:32 < mcallan> "as little as possible" room, i hope ;)
22:33 < mcallan> well, that's not fair i guess.  cause i don't know why you want trac.  don't know the problem u want to solve.
22:34 < conseo> i want to make it as easy as possible for contributers to get technically in touch, that is all.
22:35 < conseo> but you are right
22:35 < conseo> we can do it when we get the first bug reports via mail
22:36 < conseo> or even then you might have a better solution
22:36 < conseo> but once bugs are reported a bugtracker makes sense
22:37 < conseo> i was just mentioning trac because it already has wiki for software management stuff like docs roadmaps and timelines available
22:37 < conseo> so we could easily use wiki markup and stuff to show progress or roadmaps
22:38 < conseo> (i mean you can use that to mark features/bugs as done in mercurial)
22:44 < mcallan> i just don't like working in integrated environments, c.  i'm so far away from that, to the point (sorry) of being somewhat opposed to it.  i mean personally.
22:48 < conseo> ok, no problem. but a bug tracker is economically when we get many bug reports... this is still a bit away, so we can postpone any thoughts about it
22:55 < conseo> but if you don't like it i can do it then
22:58 < mcallan> sure, i don't want to be in the way.  btw here's my desktop: http://zelea.com/var/tmp-public/desktop.png
22:59 < mcallan> i can't stand working in an environment, so i chose the most minimal window manager i could manage with.  half of it i scripted myself.
23:00 < mcallan> that was years ago, and i never regretted.  i almost installed this: http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/
23:01 < mcallan> but that seemed *too* minimal, to the point of non functional... tho now i'm not so sure.
23:01 < conseo> :-)
23:02 < conseo> i see
23:02 < conseo> how many screens do you have?
23:03 < mcallan> i love ratpoison, i wish i could use it. 6 screens, most of them fairly small (that's the bottom artifacts u see in the shot)
23:03 < conseo> ok, cool. atm. only 12'' here
23:04 < conseo> looks pretty individualistic. i see the value in your attitude and i have respect for the experience it represents
23:05 < conseo> i have to go some way still, yet i prefer sharing of functionality with a library/software environment where it does not get in my way (like KDE for example)
23:05 < conseo> but that might change, don't know
23:06 < conseo> in foss even if it looks bloated it is often still well modelled or configurable. that is what i really like about a foss desktop environment. there is nothing you can't chose and if you find something you likely can set it up your own with the parts in front of you
23:07 < conseo> i have to get a nice multi monitor setup
23:07 < conseo> any you have to get a flash player (gnash or lightspark might work now as well, but then gpl/bsd is not so important to you)
23:07 < conseo> s/any you/and you/
23:07 < conseo> :-p
23:08 < conseo> or firefox 4 + html5 video might fix it if you wait another year...
23:09 < mcallan> multi-monitor is pretty cheap. u don't need big fancy screens. (i need flash, pdf and skype... i wuz waiting for 64bit versions... but i can use the windoze box for now)
23:14 < conseo> http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/square/
23:14 < conseo> yep i know 22'' even costs little more than 100€ here
23:15 < mcallan> it'll be in the gentoo stream soon. maybe on my next rebuild.
23:16 < mcallan> we have to get to work.  work hard, and hopefully we'll earn u some money to buy hardware.
23:18 < conseo> :-D for u too 
--- Log closed Sun Mar 27 00:00:43 2011