--- Log opened Wed Mar 23 00:00:40 2011
00:17 < conseo> mcallan: i have merged and the code should be ready now. 
00:18 < conseo> i have updated the docs so if all goes well and the test run until tomorrow works as expected then we can set it up tomorrow
00:23 < conseo> crossforum does not load with me since the merge though
00:23 < conseo> http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/
00:37 < mcallan> conseo: hey c, i've been doing a code-athon, and just about done in.  something's wrong at your end, because my latest cut (compiled an hour go) is running: http://u.zelea.com/var/deploy/crossforum/
00:41 < mcallan> firebug tells me there are two undefined properties. But the code is obfuscated, so i can't debug.
00:47 < mcallan> u need to run the gwt compiler (e.g. in devmode) with -ea -style DETAILED
00:50 < mcallan> that'll defeat the obfuscation. i can help tomorrow, at some point. need some zzz's because i've been up 30 hours.
05:11 < conseo> xfBot: how are yout?
05:11 < xfBot> xfBot is CrossForumBot 0.1 for http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/
05:11 < xfBot> xfBot COMMANDS parameters # comment
05:11 < xfBot> xfBot TIME # current time of the bot
05:11 < xfBot> xfBot INVITE channel # invite temporarily
05:12 < conseo> mcallan: i have rebuild two times and have restarted tomcat two times and now it works (?)...
05:29 < conseo> xfBot: channels
05:29 < xfBot> Currently monitoring: #metagov
05:36 < conseo> xfBot: channels
05:37 < xfBot> Currently monitoring: #metagov ##metagov_hidden
05:38 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: ping
05:38 < thomasvonderelbe> conseo: hello
05:38 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: just to let you know, i point the post url now to the last post in the thread on the list and not the first one
05:39 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: it is not really easy to map to pipermail because there is little information in the web interface (e.g. no email to match only the name (which can be random compared to mail))
05:40 < thomasvonderelbe> well, but this should do the job always, shouldnt it?
05:40 < thomasvonderelbe> its always the last mail
05:41 < conseo> if the message gets parsed on the voharvester soon after it has been sent to the list the post will match, older posts are pointed to the wrong post likely
05:41 < thomasvonderelbe> ah I see
05:41 < thomasvonderelbe> how often does the parser go?
05:42 < conseo> every minute for local files or sane imap boxes
05:42 < conseo> it shouldn't be a problem on the run for now
05:43 < conseo> http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2010-November/003269.html here is a timestamp, i could try to match that.. maybe... scraping is not really a sane job :-/
05:43 < thomasvonderelbe> so it means, that the feed only links to the wrong message if a new post was written less than a minute after the one before?
05:43 < conseo> yep
05:44 < thomasvonderelbe> well, thats good enough!
05:44 < conseo> for our one minute interval and if it happens on the run
05:44 < conseo> ok
05:44 < thomasvonderelbe> dont you think so ?
05:44 < conseo> yep i think so, but some people might get puzzled if the harvester is stopped for some time
05:47 < conseo> oh the email addresses are in the gzip file on pipermail (hehe)
05:47 < thomasvonderelbe> you mean if the harvester is down for sevice, as soon as he comes up again, the following feed will link wrong? is this what you mean?
05:47 < conseo> this is stupid
05:47 < conseo> yep
05:47 < thomasvonderelbe> what?
05:47 < conseo> http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2011-March.txt.gz
05:49 < conseo> the interface is so stupid, why can't they just add a header to the mail with a link to the post?
05:50 < thomasvonderelbe> can you solve the problem through the gzip?
05:51 < conseo> i'd have to refetch the gzip on every diff-url matched post which would cause a redownload of the whole months data on every hit...
05:51 < conseo> this is not a big problem, but it is not optimal
05:51 < conseo> at least for low traffic mailing lists
05:52 < thomasvonderelbe> hm
05:52 < conseo> otherwise it could become a problem (if the file becomes larger than 1 mib, e.g.)
05:53 < thomasvonderelbe> otoh, how often is the harvester going to be down? because the 1-minute delay is not serious problem imo
05:54 < conseo> well ideally never :-p
05:56 < thomasvonderelbe> :-)  well then, lets just leave this tiny little problem for later! Hm?
05:56 < conseo> xfBot: what are you doing?
05:56 < xfBot> xfBot is CrossForumBot 0.1 for http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/
05:56 < xfBot> xfBot COMMANDS parameters # comment
05:56 < xfBot> xfBot CHANNELS # channels being monitored
05:56 < xfBot> xfBot TIME # current time of the bot
05:56 < xfBot> xfBot INVITE channel # invite temporarily
05:57 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: yep, maybe i get some inspiration...
05:58 < conseo> cool the footings work as i wished...
05:59 < conseo> http://metagovernment.org/w/index.php?title=User:Conseo/draft#4048.2784-4042.2772
06:00 < thomasvonderelbe> ah I just had a look at the theatre. all the older feed ofc link to the last now. But from now on, it should work, right? I mean, honestly how often is the harvester going to be down?
06:00 < conseo> i have added some gpl and bsd additions for the conditions of solutions on metagovernment. http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D/?a=4048&aR=2784&b=4042&bR=2772#_1.1 don't know if it is too strong, but i think we could be a little bit more descriptive here
06:00 < xfBot> POLL: G/p/mho
06:00 < xfBot> AUTHOR: 4consensus WebDe
06:00 < xfBot> POSURL: http://metagovernment.org/w/index.php?oldid=2772
06:01 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, I discovered it yesterday :-)
06:02 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: ideally almost never. even if u install a new version u can restart it in a few seconds. the problems are errors or outside conditions taking a server down, but for now it works, u are right
06:02 < thomasvonderelbe> ok, thats good
06:04 < thomasvonderelbe> I'm trying to understand our new little friend here in the chat
06:05 < thomasvonderelbe> :-D
06:05 < conseo> :-D
06:05 < conseo> xfBot: help
06:05 < xfBot> xfBot is CrossForumBot 0.1 for http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/
06:05 < xfBot> xfBot COMMANDS parameters # comment
06:05 < xfBot> xfBot CHANNELS # channels being monitored
06:05 < xfBot> xfBot TIME # current time of the bot
06:05 < xfBot> xfBot INVITE channel # invite temporarily
06:05 < conseo> maybe i can make that more informative?
06:06 < thomasvonderelbe> is http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/  the overview over all  polls?
06:06 < thomasvonderelbe> whats the difference to http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/#c=DG?
06:07 < conseo> oh it is just a configured reference for harvesters which write information themselves to point them back to the related crossforum instance
06:08 < conseo> u are right since Dum is default we should include #c=DG, but DG or sth. else should be default anyway then
06:08 < conseo> xfBot: invite #cotw
06:08 < xfBot> Joined #cotw.
06:09 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: i think its cool that u can take it to the channel where a discussion takes place
06:10 < conseo> but maybe only me finds that awesome... we'll have to see
06:10 < xfBotHarness> huhu i am a troll (not?)
06:10 < xfBotHarness> xfBot: channels
06:10 < xfBot> Currently monitoring: #cotw #metagov ##metagov_hidden
06:12 < thomasvonderelbe> aah I'm trying hard to understand, but I slowly get it!
06:12 < thomasvonderelbe> from every chanel to can invite every bot to every other channel?
06:13 < conseo> yep temporarily until the bot is restarted (you can define a list of default channels in the harvester)
06:13 < conseo> but only on the same server of course
06:15 < thomasvonderelbe> "the same server" ... is this a limitation in a way?
06:15 < thomasvonderelbe> which?
06:15 < conseo> nope, not really. you can configure several bots (IRCHarvesters) for several servers at the same time
06:15 < conseo> just wanted to mention it
06:16 < conseo> the footings stuff is awesome
06:16 < conseo> i have to tell mike
06:16 < thomasvonderelbe> but I'm just going over one server too, right? and I can read all the messages.
06:17 < conseo> yep this is all freenode, including #bdsm :-p
06:17 < thomasvonderelbe> ahh ok, all the channels here go over freenode. other channels might go over other servers and bots for them would need to be extra
06:18 < conseo> exactly
06:18 < thomasvonderelbe> like this?
06:18 < thomasvonderelbe> aha, I'm getting it after all! :-)
06:19 < thomasvonderelbe> can everyone invite bots and kick them out?
06:20 < conseo> you can't kick them out atm.
06:20 < conseo> don't know if this is necessary
06:20 < thomasvonderelbe> which is good imo!
06:20 < conseo> if you discuss diff-urls it will show some information (as above) otherwise it is quiet anyway
06:20 < thomasvonderelbe> and invite?
06:20 < conseo> what do you mean?
06:21 < conseo> you can invite it somewhere if u like to
06:21 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, I was just thinking of a potential evil person 
06:21 < conseo> u can attack the bot with diff url queries and ddos the harvester i guess
06:22 < conseo> but i don't mind until we face this behaviour. we can then insert a timer
06:23 < thomasvonderelbe> invite xfBotHarness
06:23 < thomasvonderelbe> invite: xfBotHarness
06:24 < thomasvonderelbe> xfBotHarness plz join us!
06:24 < conseo> xfBot: help
06:24 < xfBot> xfBot is CrossForumBot 0.1 for http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/
06:24 < xfBot> xfBot COMMANDS parameters # comment
06:24 < xfBot> xfBot CHANNELS # channels being monitored
06:24 < xfBot> xfBot TIME # current time of the bot
06:24 < xfBot> xfBot INVITE channel # invite temporarily
06:25 < thomasvonderelbe> ah
06:25 < thomasvonderelbe> xfBotHarness invite
06:25 < conseo> Harness was me
06:25 < conseo> xfBotHarness
06:25 < conseo> hmm i guess the syntax is not clear
06:25 < thomasvonderelbe> because I left out the channel?
06:25 < conseo> you type: "xfBot: invite #myfunkychannel"
06:26 < conseo> s/you/one
06:26 < thomasvonderelbe> but xfBot is already here
06:26 < thomasvonderelbe> i wanted to invite one, which isnt here yet
06:27 < thomasvonderelbe> xfBot: invite
06:27 < thomasvonderelbe> xfBot: invite #metagov
06:27 < conseo> there are irc commands for that i think. you can only invite the bot to another channel
06:27 < thomasvonderelbe> I see
06:27 < conseo> i'll restart it and u can invite it to #cotw
06:28 < thomasvonderelbe> xfBot: invite #cotw
06:28 < conseo> not yet here again...
06:28 < conseo> now
06:28 < thomasvonderelbe> xfBot: invite #cotw
06:28 < xfBot> Joined #cotw.
06:28 < thomasvonderelbe> ahh :-)
06:28 < conseo> :-D
06:29 < conseo> xfBot: channels
06:29 < xfBot> Currently monitoring: #cotw #metagov ##metagov_hidden
06:29 < thomasvonderelbe> lol
06:29 < thomasvonderelbe> and this is the harverster, yes?
06:29 < conseo> bots can be great fun...
06:29 < conseo> yep
06:29 < thomasvonderelbe> lol
06:29 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, seems so!
06:30 < conseo> my diff-message from earlier shows now up in DG
06:30 < thomasvonderelbe> a little strange feeling though, what if they make love and become more and more?
06:30 < conseo> bork attack ...
06:31 < conseo> then linux will take over the world :-p
06:31 < conseo> xfBot: your dumb little piece of wire, are you?
06:31 < xfBot> xfBot is CrossForumBot 0.1 for http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/
06:31 < thomasvonderelbe> lol, the future is going to be bright!
06:31 < xfBot> xfBot COMMANDS parameters # comment
06:31 < xfBot> xfBot CHANNELS # channels being monitored
06:31 < xfBot> xfBot TIME # current time of the bot
06:31 < xfBot> xfBot INVITE channel # invite temporarily
06:31 < conseo> stupid as metal...
06:32 < conseo> looks like great fun atm.
06:32 < thomasvonderelbe> xfBot: what is the time?
06:32 < xfBot> xfBot is CrossForumBot 0.1 for http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/
06:32 < xfBot> xfBot COMMANDS parameters # comment
06:32 < xfBot> xfBot CHANNELS # channels being monitored
06:32 < xfBot> xfBot TIME # current time of the bot
06:32 < xfBot> xfBot INVITE channel # invite temporarily
06:32 < conseo> xfBot: time
06:32 < xfBot> conseo: The time is now Wed Mar 23 11:33:47 CET 2011
06:32 < thomasvonderelbe> ok
06:32 < conseo> xfBot time
06:32 < xfBot> conseo: The time is now Wed Mar 23 11:34:03 CET 2011
06:32 < conseo> you can leave the colon out
06:33 < thomasvonderelbe> always?
06:33 < conseo> yep
06:33 < thomasvonderelbe> cool
06:33 < conseo> xfBot channels
06:33 < xfBot> Currently monitoring: #cotw #metagov ##metagov_hidden
06:33 < thomasvonderelbe> is this the first bot in a irc channel ever?
06:33 < conseo> but quassel adds it automatically if you hit <tab> for autocompletion
06:33 < conseo> nope not at all
06:34 < thomasvonderelbe> so people are used to these guys here already?
06:34 < thomasvonderelbe> what do other bots do?
06:34 < conseo> http://www.jibble.org/ this one here is a PircBot
06:35 < conseo> show information (e.g. about bug reports, code changes or some other events) be queryable about day and night time of nicks (e.g. when have you last seen nickofuserx ...
06:36 < conseo> xfBot: also writes a log, which is also something that other bots do
06:37 < conseo> anonymous controls their attacks over anonymous irc chats and bot commands
06:37 < conseo> its pretty flexible
06:37 < thomasvonderelbe> wow, I just learn a lot. theres is also a comic bot who waits quitly until something funny happens and then makes comments
06:38 < thomasvonderelbe> I never heard of bots before xfBot
06:39 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, the footing in the wiki is great, isnt it!
06:39 < conseo> it is
06:40 < thomasvonderelbe> btw, did you think of linking the last feedpost, e.g. to the chatlog somehow?
06:40 < conseo> uuuh it is GPL again
06:40 < thomasvonderelbe> difficult?
06:41 < conseo> we cannot license our code BSD if it links to GPL code (this is the whole point of the GPL)
06:41 < conseo> you mean posts from the mailing list?
06:42 < thomasvonderelbe> no the last one from the chat here
06:42 < thomasvonderelbe> yours
06:45 < conseo> what do you mean? i link from crossforum to the point in this chatlog where the diff-url has been mentioned
06:45 < conseo> that is why i have done that stupid backlog code...
06:46 < conseo> you can see it as the link to the discussion medium in the top post in my crossform (DG)
06:47 < conseo> it points to my internal hostname atm. but it work already
06:48 < conseo> i'll set it up with mike later if the bot behaves as expected
06:56 < thomasvonderelbe> if I click on the link in the last post here http://whiletaker.homeip.net:8080/voff/crossforum/#c=DG 
06:56 < thomasvonderelbe> it says server unable to connect
06:57 < conseo> the server is "votorola", right?
06:58 < thomasvonderelbe> http://votorola/irclog/2011-03-23/Nmetagov.html#1300874527412
06:58 < conseo> yep that is my internal name
06:59 < thomasvonderelbe> if i click on it, there is no log
06:59 < conseo> my server doesn't work on the outside yet and i don't want to give it a rush (since the pollwiki would also be exposed then and i am not well educated on security and safety of mediawiki yet)
06:59 < conseo> i will set it up later with mike (hopefully) for u.zelea.com
07:00 < thomasvonderelbe> ah, i see, atm only you can see it.
07:00 < conseo> yep and it works
07:00 < thomasvonderelbe> cool!
07:01 < conseo> nothing fancy though, so no need to be curious... 
07:01 < thomasvonderelbe> lol
07:01 < thomasvonderelbe> its enough, to get to the info!
07:01 < thomasvonderelbe> for me
07:02 < thomasvonderelbe> Hey C, I'm going for some breakfast now!
07:02 < conseo> ok cu later or tomorrow
07:02 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, cu
07:02 < conseo> und nen guten ;-)
07:07 < thomasvonderelbe> I just had one last look at the theatre: its beautiful! Thank you C !
07:10 < conseo> thx :-D
17:12 < mcallan> conseo: hey c, should i be pulling and setting up the new harvester?
17:19 < mcallan> xfBot: go wake up c
17:21 < conseo> mcallan: u can pull and might need to tell me sth. about my log switching first
17:22 < mcallan> ok, i should be ready to pull within 30 m. log switching?
17:22 < conseo> not sure if this is safe and doesn't lead to unpredicted behaviour in cases a message occurs on midnight while the BufferedWriter is newly set up in IRCBot.java
17:23 < conseo> The timer calls run() from a different thread right? so the scheduled routine can run in parallel to the thread owning the object
17:25 < mcallan> not sure... what code do u refer to? what timer, etc.
17:28 < conseo> u'll see when u pull
17:29 < mcallan> ok, i'll ping u shortly... u will be around a while?
17:29 < conseo> at least for an hour and a half
17:29 < mcallan> ok, i shouldn't be long.
18:00 < conseo> mcallan: have you thought about using the semantic properties to define voting inside of semediawiki?
18:07 < mcallan> conseo: (just pulling now) yes, but unlike using it as UI for extending trust edges (voter register), vote shifts are too frequent. fill up the rev history.
18:09 < conseo> hmm what do you mean? i just thought about something like [[votes for::PAGENAME]]
18:10 < conseo> this should only change the site if the person shifts his/her own vote
18:10 < conseo> recursive queries seem to be impossible atm. and they would indeed kill the server quickly i guess
18:12 < conseo> but if we can use properties as pointers then we could trace different properties during a vote count and do something different for each of them
18:14 < mcallan> i meant that people will shift their votes a lot, so the rev history will be filled with vote shifts
18:16 < conseo> why do people shift their votes constantly?
18:17 < conseo> not sure why they won't stabelize ...
18:17 < mcallan> conseo: i recomend moving votorola/g/mail/FakeFolder.java into a/ where it's used. unless u feel it's likely to be shared elsewhere. (minor point)
18:18 < conseo> ok
18:18 < conseo> pircbot is gpl, i have recalled today :-(
18:18 < conseo> so i guess we have to find a solution for it
18:18 < conseo> i couldn't find a bsd licensed irc bot solution for java
18:18 < mcallan> it's not only that they will shift relatively often (more often than shifting trust), but the number of voters is likely to be 10 or 20X the number of drafters.
18:19 < mcallan> u using gpl code for something big?
18:19 < conseo> ok, would it be difficult to trace other properties through the vote count than the trust
18:19 < conseo> yep the IRCBot is bound to PircBot
18:20 < conseo> it is only IRCBot.java which is the core of the IRCHarvester (maybe we can define a build switch for GPL respecting installations?)
18:23 < mcallan> where's the gpl jar?
18:24 < conseo> /votorola/g/web/pircbot.jar
18:26 < mcallan> please add pircbot.txt, linking to the licence (like other jars). might be OK if it's restricted to the IRC harvester, but there's risk your code may be lost.
18:26 < mcallan> what is this for? http://zelea.com/project/votorola/g/mail/MimeMessageX.java
18:27 < conseo> what do you mean with lost? lost to the gpl or lost for further distribution?
18:27 < mcallan> why not just new MimeMessage(f, is, 0)
18:27 < mcallan> lost for further distribution
18:28 < mcallan> if anyone complains, we might have to ditch (either that, or go GPL)
18:29 < conseo> hmm ok
18:29 < conseo> maybe we can find a replacement
18:29 < mcallan> compiles ok. u wanted to ask about threading, before i run it?
18:31 < conseo> mcallan: the constructor for InputStream is protected 	MimeMessage(Folder folder, InputStream is, int msgnum) 
18:32 < conseo> have a look at IRCBot.java:243 rotateLogs()
18:33 < conseo> i close the the BufferedWriter here and reassign it. can logPlain() happen during that period?
18:34 < conseo> it is called by IRCBot.log()
18:34 < mcallan> ok, can u add API doc for MimeMessageX.MimeMessageX() saying that. And maybe give MimeMessageX class a boilerplate javadoc like the other *X.
18:34 < conseo> ok
18:35 < mcallan> (sorry to be nit-picky, just ittle things)
18:39 < mcallan> conseo: reassign it? a separate thread may call logPlain(), is that the concern?
18:40 < conseo> yep
18:40 < mcallan> reassign?
18:41 < mcallan> o i see
18:41 < mcallan> you set outp
18:43 < mcallan> this class is not labelled @ThreadSafe, but you say multiple threads are calling it?
18:44 < mcallan> conseo: can i skype u?
18:44 < mcallan> (chat too slow)
18:45 < conseo> one mom.
18:49 < conseo> ready
18:50 < conseo> Timer: A facility for threads to schedule tasks for future execution in a background thread. 
19:04 < mcallan> conseo: i think i lost u
19:04 < conseo> i can still here u
19:04 < conseo> but battery is low
19:05 < conseo> i'll fetch the power adaptor
19:05 < conseo> wait a sec
20:06 < mcallan> conseo: i got the echo, and lost u
20:08 < conseo> skype lost its connection to the headset again
20:11 < mcallan> conseo: i think the budgeting mechanism would be useful. it would probably have some connection to the other media (drafting, voting, discussion) though maybe it would mostly be joined to them in a higher facility, like the theatre app, for e.g.
20:14 < mcallan> just when we were cut off, i was getting the impression you thought of voting as a special case of budgetting.  not sure...
20:15 < mcallan> you're still offline. i'm taking a break for lunch
20:23 < mcallan> Christian Fuchs is posting about his book in some of the e-dem lists: http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415588812/
20:30 < conseo> ok, is there something special about it?
20:30 < mcallan> it may dovetail to some extent with what u were thinking of: http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/7Ma6HxendCpk4DFvoR790q
20:31 < mcallan> but $150, and the UofT doesn't have a copy yet
20:32 < mcallan> back soon, off to lunch...
20:38 < conseo> ok
20:39 < conseo> haha Marx tradition for $150?
20:58 < conseo> mcallan: ping back when u r there again
21:00 < conseo> should i move MimeMessageX as well back in votorola.a.diff.feed.maildir ?
21:21 < conseo> i have found bsd replacements for PircBot, had i only had a closer look at PircBot's license in the first run...
21:30 < mcallan> conseo: pong, i'm back
21:30 < conseo> ok
21:31 < mcallan> if MimeMessageX is generally useful, you could leave it there (tho i'm not sure why it the constructor protected)
21:33 < conseo> i think because you should not instantiate MimeMessage for your own in javax.mail since it is using Store and Folder internally and is bound to them i think
21:36 < conseo> this one http://code.google.com/p/boticelli/ uses spring
21:36 < conseo> is that reasonable?
21:37 < conseo> btw. it doesn't make too much sense to move only FakeFolder away since MimeMessageX depends on FakeFolder to be able to do message parsing
21:37 < conseo> it needs a Folder object
21:39 < mcallan> ah then, it makes sense to move both. until some other bit o code needs them.
21:42 < conseo> ok
21:47 < conseo> mcallan: is spring usage reasonable?
21:56 < mcallan> not sure, i've rarely need to use any j2ee stuff.  when i needed it's URL builder, i found i could get it by installing just the jersey jar.  but spring/jsee is an application framework (like GWT) so i guess it depends on the app.  some need it, some don't
22:01 < conseo> boticelli needs it, it has an integrated ajax logging functionality and a webchat which could be handy... 
22:01 < conseo> i can't find a chat archive of it online to check though
22:03 < mcallan> if a library like boti depends on spring, then we could just install the spring jars to keep it happy. sure
22:03 < conseo> ok
22:04 < conseo> cool
22:04 < conseo> i guess i have to rewrite the bot than anyway :-/, so we'll do the setup another time
22:05 < conseo> can u talk on skype again?
22:06 < mcallan> just with spring jar, mark what it's a dependency of like here: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/g/web/commons-httpclient.txt
22:06 < mcallan> ok, let me fire up my skype box
22:10 < conseo> mcallan: the dev of boticelli is into e-gov as well http://www.opensaga.org/confluence/display/websiteen/Home
22:12 < mcallan> i lost u again
22:12 < conseo> i got you again
22:12 < conseo> but now u can not hear me ...
22:13 < conseo> i'll restart skype and retry
22:13 < conseo> ok
--- Log closed Thu Mar 24 00:00:55 2011