--- Log opened Thu Mar 17 00:00:50 2011
00:11 < conseo> mcallan: i have created a new Property called IRCNick to set your nickname on the users page
00:12 < conseo> maybe this should go into a generic Contact Property or sth.
09:39 < mcallan> conseo: re IRCNick, whatever seems best.  If in doubt, simplest is best, so i wouldn't generalize it. Once it's debugged, we can add it to Template:Registration properties: http://u.zelea.com/w/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Registration_properties
09:41 < conseo> ok
09:42 < mcallan> A couple of suggestions/requests: it would be more proper and consistent to call it "IRC nicname". You could simply move the page. http://u.zelea.com/w/Property:IRCNick
09:43 < mcallan> And this page is in the wrong place: http://u.zelea.com/w/VOHarvester
09:44 < mcallan> this is a multi-area wiki, and all pages in the main namespace must be subpages of area pages.
09:44 < mcallan> (as it is, you have defined a polling area called "VOHarvester")
09:45 < mcallan> see http://u.zelea.com/w/Category:Area
09:47 < mcallan> myself, i put those kind of pages in my own userspace. Eg: http://u.zelea.com/w/User:Mike-ZeleaCom#Other_subpages_I.27m_working_on
10:06 < conseo> mcallan: but this means that [[ ]] links don't work. you'll always have to give the path to the exact page, right?
10:07 < conseo> would Tools qualify as an area? or are areas strictly geographical?
10:11 < conseo> sry if i ask dumb questions, i am trying to understand all these wiki details... although i have played a bit with mediawikis, i have never actually run one
10:19 < conseo> is the semantic stuff restricted to define and use vote properties or may it be used for any type of annotations? because [[Voting Tool::/VOHarvester]] still points to the global namespace
10:19 < mcallan> s'ok. areas are not a mediawiki concept, but a pollwiki concept. they are meant to be moved to separate wikis: http://zelea.com/project/outcast/dep.xht#area
10:21 < conseo> yep i know and we have already talked about this. but if i remember correctly then you have told me that an area can also be an organisation or an arbitrary social structure, right?
10:27 < mcallan> yes. if you want to create an area that's like an encyclopedia, that would be ok. but doesn't description of voharvester belong in code? See 3.3: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/a/crossforum/crossforum.xht
10:29 < conseo> mcallan: sure, although a pointer in the wiki to the docs might make sense, i was just playing a bit around. 
10:32 < mcallan> ok
10:38 < conseo> can i link to your /Crossforum page?
10:38 < conseo> mcallan: i mean how can i?
10:39 < mcallan> Crossforum page?
10:43 < conseo> your Crossforum page
10:43 < conseo> in your namespace
10:44 < mcallan> looking...
10:45 < mcallan> this one? http://u.zelea.com/w/User:Mike-ZeleaCom/Crossforum_ranging
10:46 < conseo> yep, for example
10:46 < mcallan> [[User:Mike-ZeleaCom/Crossforum ranging]]
10:47 < mcallan> or pretty: [[User:Mike-ZeleaCom/Crossforum ranging|mike's crossforum page]]
10:50 < conseo> ok, cool thx. so the users are expected to link to each other from their namespaces?
10:50 < conseo> if they only knew wiki syntax ...
10:53 < mcallan> users must currently know how to use a wiki, for functions 2 and 3 here: http://zelea.com/project/outcast/dep.xht
10:53 < mcallan> but that's only temporary
10:54 < mcallan> conseo: but mediawiki is beautiful, and worth learning :-)
10:57 < conseo> mcallan: yep, i think so. esp. the semantic stuff is really nice. i have started to read about it yesterday and i think it is very useful for what we do
11:54 < conseo> mcallan: http://zelea.com/project/outcast/dep.xht#wiki (1) "The wiki may be lightly loaded with other services that are somewhat less common or essential, but it might often be better to factor those out to other facilites." So content should go to a seperate Wiki, like e.g. the one for Metagovernment?
11:56 < mcallan> generally, i think so. mind, user pages are handy, too.
12:00 < conseo> but this is also necessary from a neutrality pov? the pollwiki is supposed to be a central place for an area, right? you can mirror votes for areas, but if the situation is not hostile then each area is ideally served by a single pollwiki, right?
12:02 < mcallan> hostile? i don't understand.
12:02 < mcallan> what's a hostile sit?
12:12 < conseo> in the sense that the pollwiki administrator takes influence on the way an area is organized
12:12 < conseo> then you have to fork
12:13 < conseo> but ideally you shouldn't need to and there should be one pollwiki for each area, right?
12:13 < mcallan> ok. i was going to say: areas are logically independent. but we can't technically support physical independence yet (and there is no need yet) so we have a multi-area pollwiki
12:14 < mcallan> the admin in a multi-area pollwiki should not be interested in the content of any area, except for purposes of legality, or topicality (it must be polling related)
12:15 < mcallan> (this admin won't be, anyway ;-)
12:15 < mcallan> right, one pollwiki per area
12:16 < mcallan> and if the multi-area pollwiki admin does get on your case, then u don't "fork". u just go *physically* independent.
12:17 < mcallan> then he *physically* has no say (as logically he shouldn;t anyhow)
12:17 < mcallan> (but we don't support that yet, so i have to be very nice ;-)
12:20 < conseo> ok :-D hehe
12:20 < conseo> maybe we should found a club of the nice pollwiki admins :-p
12:21 < conseo> you are my candidate for presidency
12:21  * conseo shows respect for the enormous work mike has already put in the codebase
12:21 < mcallan> ah shucks, thanks c
12:22 < mcallan> now get to work! ;-)
12:22 < conseo> :-)
12:24 < conseo> by "physically independant" you mean that after he has configured his own pollserver for the area of the restive admin he simply sets one up himself and points his pollserver there?
12:24 < conseo> dep.xht does not mention the pollserver in stage 2
12:25 < conseo> only a cluster of servers
12:28 < mcallan> that includes vote-servers. yes, in stage 3 he points them to the new pollwiki.
12:30 < conseo> ok. i could try that with your pollwiki one day in the not so distant future (hopefully) and serve areas in europe/germany
12:33 < mcallan> yes
12:46 < conseo> mcallan: since when do you work full-time on votorola/text-bender?
12:54 < mcallan> including the recombinant text? it's been about 2/3 time since (gulp) fall 2001. textbender was hard, 3 alpha protoypes. votorola (summer 2007) has been a breeze by comparision.
12:57 < conseo> wow, that is a looong time. i have been 17 back then and did neither know gnu/linux nor real programming yet... :-p
15:02 < conseo> mcallan: just came accross this gpl'ed wysiwyg editor: http://smwdemo.ontoprise.com/index.php?title=WYSIWYG_Sandbox&action=edit&mode=wysiwyg
15:05 < mcallan> thomas will be interested. but we discussed before and tested one. grep WYSIWYG in the V list.
15:07 < mcallan> note the connection with free-range drafting. WYSIWYG and non-WYSIWYG drafters will have to be connected by translators, just like German and English.
15:07 < mcallan> the discussions tell why
15:17 < conseo> kk
15:23 < mcallan> if ur safari has something like this, at least u can do wikitext with ur fav editor: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/its-all-text/
15:25 < mcallan> conseo: and ur editor might be able to do WYSIWG. if so, tell thomas!
15:26 < conseo> no safari it is. it is rekonq a qt-webkit-browser
15:26 < conseo> thx
15:27 < mcallan> welcome. these strings are useless: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; de-DE) AppleWebKit/533.3 (KHTML, like Gecko) quassel Safari/533.3
15:28 < conseo> hehe. seems to be that way. quassel is actually my irc client
15:30 < conseo> but this plugin is mostly for plaintext editors, right?
15:33 < mcallan> for text editors, but maybe ur text editor has a MediaWiki mode that can do more than just syntax highlighting. i dunno, just a suggest.
15:35 < conseo> sure thx! does emacs have a mediawiki mode which does more than highlighting?
15:37 < mcallan> dunno
15:38 < mcallan> mine pops up in MediaWiki (major) Wrap (minor)
15:38 < mcallan> but i guess i defined that myself: http://zelea.com/.emacs
15:39 < conseo> ok
16:09 < conseo> mcallan: i am using WikiCache to fetch the semantic data from the User:Page to find out the IRC nickname property. Yet it uses Jena to parse them in the "vars": [ "s" , "p" , "o" ] JSON form. I can't find the property in there anymore.
16:09 < conseo>  
16:10 < conseo> do i need to hack WikiCache / write my own access class to fetch properties from the wiki?
16:11 < mcallan> why would it need hack?
16:11 < conseo> output is in the pad
16:11 < mcallan> oh sry, i didn't read
16:11 < conseo> hack = code
16:17 < mcallan> what's the page URL?
16:18 < mcallan> conseo: what am i doing wrong? this page is empty: http://u.zelea.com/w/User:Consensus89-YmailCom
16:19 < conseo> uhhh, sry. mixed up my two email addresses. 
16:19  * conseo goes hiding in the corner
16:19 < mcallan> bad conseo, bad...
16:39 < conseo> now it is set, but still no luck: http://u.zelea.com/w/User:Consensus89-YmailCom output pasted in the pad http://u.zelea.com/w/Special:ExportRDF/User:consensus89-YmailCom shows the property set
17:36 < mcallan> conseo: you have an example that works, so it should be possible to debug
17:46 < mcallan> change the 'title' here http://u.zelea.com/w/Sys/p/sandbox
17:47 < mcallan> then click 'reconstruct' here: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/Poll?p=Sys!p!sandbox
17:52 < conseo> thx, i am working on it. now i only need to parse the JSON in java
17:53 < mcallan> hmmm, just in case, be sure first that config isn't more appropriate
17:58 < mcallan> conseo: if there's any possibility that admin would want some control over how IRC nicks are associated with ur service, then factor it all out to config. Like constructing Poll here: http://u.zelea.com/system/host/u/home/v/votorola/poll.js
17:59 < mcallan> keeps the code clean, too
17:59 < conseo> puuuh ok
18:01 < conseo> i haven't written ecmascript in years...
18:02 < mcallan> you'll love it! it's just like Java. except when it isn't ;-)
18:08 < conseo> hmmm, dunno. no type safety, no compiler checks... no i have to set it up for development. but i guess i cannot avoid it... so i'll get sth. to eat and then start working on it
18:09 < conseo> do you check it for validity? i have seen that stuff like phantomjs and other stuff exists to run javascripts in a fake environment on the command line and debug it directly
18:14 < mcallan> all i've ever used so far is this: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/s/manual.xht#line-voscript
18:15 < mcallan> but even without that, the Java runtime won't pass silently over script errors. u should have no problem. just start with something that already works, and modify it one bit at a time.
18:35 < mcallan> lots of tools/docs here: http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/scripting/
18:35 < mcallan> note that u can use print/println from script, to debug it.  i forget where that's documented. prob in Rhino.
20:13 < conseo> ok thx
22:35 < conseo> mcallan: http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1300415717929.jpg 
22:35 < conseo> now you tell me how good it javascript is :-p
22:50 < mcallan> conseo: i don't get it
22:51 < conseo> hmm the file has been deleted, right?
22:51 < conseo> never mind
23:33 < conseo> mcallan: i am off for now, cu tomorrow
23:33 < conseo> n8
23:33 < mcallan> n8 c
--- Log closed Fri Mar 18 00:00:04 2011