--- Log opened Tue Mar 15 00:00:47 2011
01:06 < conseo> mcallan: u can pull now
11:34 < mcallan> conseo: thanks c, did u get my email?
11:36 < conseo> ok, got it
11:38 < mcallan> i can pull the fix later, it's not needed for this deploy
--- Log opened Tue Mar 15 11:57:29 2011
12:00 < mcallan> conseo: it's running: http://u.zelea.com/var/deploy/crossforum/#c=DG
12:08 < mcallan> here too: http://metagovernment.tuxfamily.org/crossforum/#c=DG
12:51 < conseo> mmh, the footer is again in there... :-(
12:52 < conseo> mcallan: i love the way it looks. i could stare at it for hours and play with it... if only the coordinates where meaningful we could sell it as an amusement tool :-p
12:59 < mcallan> conseo: i love it, too!
13:02 < mcallan> but i recommend letting users set the dev priorities. You are working on feed, so ask users about the feed. it should be useful by itself.
13:02 < conseo> kk
13:09 < mcallan> conseo: or, if u want to work on some other piece too, nobody will be interested in saying no. but if it's geomap (which i like to work on too) then i'd ask you to branch it, or do geomap2.
13:13 < mcallan> conseo: in near term (maybe 1 month) my best guess is the users (mostly us!) will be doing detailed drafting/discussion work in metagov list/wiki and elsewhere. so its wiki stuff and diff bridge, and not much crossforum, i guess.  but that could change.
13:25 < mcallan> scratch that "mostly us", that's not acceptable. we need others ASAP.
13:34 < conseo> mcallan: am on the phone with thomas
13:39 < mcallan> ok
14:49 < conseo> mcallan: re
14:50 < conseo> mcallan: i just had the call with thomas and we were wondering why exactly we only allow messages to show up in the diff feed if the author is one of the position holders
14:52 < conseo> usually people will discuss only changes between them and their delegates, but if they don't then they might have a good reason to discuss a difference elsewhere in the tree
14:52 < conseo> or at least mention it
14:53 < thomasvonderelbe> i feel, it would be just as valuable to know, when a and b are discussing a differnce between c and d, wouldnt it? 
15:00 < mcallan> i spec'd it here, but can't remember why: http://u.zelea.com/w/User:Mike-ZeleaCom/Difference_feeder#Intermediate_piping
15:02 < mcallan> is the difference feed really only a feed of diff-related messages? then i would say feed all such messages.
15:04 < mcallan> or is it a feed of action-oriented messages? what am i trying to say? the problem is that if Joe Nobody posts a bunch of diff URLs, what difference (pardomn me) does it make?
15:06 < thomasvonderelbe> lol
15:06 < mcallan> but if A posts a diff url, where A and B are the drafters, then it matters to B. it will affect B, and possibly the draft content. Or it will affect A's vote. You see?
15:06 < conseo> maybe Sam Fool is interested :-p
15:07 < thomasvonderelbe> are there such Joes out there, wildly posting diff-urls ?
15:07 < conseo> well if it is only a trolling protection, we should avoid it for now imo
15:07 < conseo> but if it is bound to the concept of the position trees, we might want to keep it
15:08 < conseo> mcallan: the problem which i can see is that maybe a difference upwards or elsewhere (in a sister subtree) is interesting for your position
15:08 < conseo> you might want to argue for it
15:09 < mcallan> argue to whom?
15:09 < mcallan> and why would they listen?
15:10 < mcallan> i agree that we needn't worry about spam filtering, if that's all it is.
15:10 < thomasvonderelbe> imagine: I think about living my candidate and going to another branch of the tree. So I look for a good place to go and talk with my voters about it and its diffs to its surrounding places.
15:11 < thomasvonderelbe> i meant leaving my candidate
15:12 < mcallan> and so a user in theatre sees your messages.
15:13 < mcallan> he also sees messages of the voters/candidate in that other branch.
15:13 < mcallan> these are equal?
15:14 < thomasvonderelbe> yes
15:14 < mcallan> there is a difference
15:14 < thomasvonderelbe> but I agree, it would be good to able to filter at some point
15:14 < mcallan> yes, because of the difference
15:15 < thomasvonderelbe> yes
15:15 < thomasvonderelbe> but as long as there are so few messages only, i would not filter
15:15 < mcallan> although c is right, don't filter unless needed (and it's not)...
15:16 < mcallan> (not yet anyway) it's also bad to introduce complexity, before it is really needed
15:16 < thomasvonderelbe> yes, so we can leave this for now. So its easier for him now.
15:16 < mcallan> i think so
15:16 < thomasvonderelbe> cool!
15:17 < thomasvonderelbe> I gotta go now. Tomorrow I'll start drafting the meta-answer.
15:18 < mcallan> ok, when will u post?
15:18 < conseo> another scenario would be imo that if my candidate (B) has a difference (actually patched from me) with his/her candidate (C) then i could argue that if (C) is not going to accept the difference i am going to leave. atm. (B) would do that, because he/she knows that i will turn away then
15:18 < thomasvonderelbe> tomorrow afternoon
15:19 < thomasvonderelbe> german time
15:19 < conseo> so maybe mike is right, but for different subtrees i am not sure yet
15:19 < mcallan> conseo: that's tru, you have a strong interest in downstream flow
15:19 < mcallan> thomasvonderelbe: so soon?
15:20 < thomasvonderelbe> should I wait till the footing control is further ?
15:20 < mcallan> i better hurry and code this, or i will be slowed down on one field, or the other.
15:20 < mcallan> not sure, your choice
15:21 < conseo> mcallan: btw. if the parsedDate property in the bite is empty, wouldn't it make more sense to clear it out but not serialize it?
15:21 < conseo> mcallan: why should we sent empty data over the wire?
15:21 < thomasvonderelbe> sounds good, then I wait one or two days. I have some others things still to do to in the meanwhile
15:22 < mcallan> thomasvonderelbe: ok
15:22 < mcallan> conseo: empty, u mean null?
15:22 < conseo> null or long(0)
15:23 < thomasvonderelbe> ok, buy guys!
15:23 < mcallan> by T
15:23 < conseo> bye
15:23 < mcallan> (3 different spelling of "bye")
15:25 < conseo> bie
15:25 < mcallan> :) should *not* serialize it over wire if it is empty
15:26 < mcallan> and u don't
15:26 < mcallan> but *do* empty it after serializing it
15:27 < mcallan> if it's a long, you could use Long.MIN_VALUE as "empty"
15:28 < mcallan> otherwise u would need a separate boolean flag parsedDateIsEmpty
15:30 < mcallan> see the spec: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/_/javadoc/votorola/a/crossforum/ss/SerialJig.html#serialize(com.google.gson.stream.JsonWriter)
15:35 < mcallan> conseo: ah, see ResidenceJig. it has boolean flags.
15:56 < conseo> mcallan: ok set to null on serialization now. could you repull and mark all messages for voharvester as new (e.g. move from cur to new). it looks like you have parsed the bites with an old version of voharvester which des not eliminate the footer
16:13 < mcallan> conseo: do i have to pull? the null-on-ser bug currently has no effect.
16:14 < conseo> i would recommend it, i have changed the update sql query. it is only a small change (shouldn't cause any problem). but you don't have to, the parsed_ts will get mixed up though
16:14 < conseo> well, it actually gets set to now()
16:15 < mcallan> no problem, i will pull and restart after lunch.
16:16 < conseo> ok, have a good meal
16:17 < mcallan> thx
17:28 < mcallan> conseo: done
17:28 < mcallan> i got several of these in v's java log:
17:28 < mcallan> SEVERE: Putting message to DB failed. 
17:28 < mcallan> org.postgresql.util.PSQLException: ERROR: duplicate key value violates unique constraint "diff_messages_pkey" at org.postgresql.core.v3.QueryExecutorImpl.receiveErrorResponse(QueryExecutorImpl.java:1592) at org.postgresql.core.v3.QueryExecutorImpl.processResults(QueryExecutorImpl.java:1327) at org.postgresql.core.v3.QueryExecutorImpl.execute(QueryExecutorImpl.java:192)
17:28 < mcallan>  at org.ostgresql.jdbc2.AbstracttJdbc2Statement.execute(AbstractJdbc2Statement.java:451) at org.postgresql.jdbc2.AbstractJdbc2Statement.executeWithFlags(AbstractJdbc2Statement.java:350) at org.postgresql.jdbc2.AbstractJdbc2Statement.executeUpdate(AbstractJdbc2Statement.java:304) at votorola.a.diff.feed.DiffMessageTable.put(DiffMessageTable.java:296) at votorola.a.diff.feed.AbstractHarvester.storeMsg(AbstractHarvester.java:88)
17:28 < mcallan>  a voto	rola.a.diff.feed.AbstractHarvester.processMsg(AbstractHarvester.java:75) at votorola.a.diff.feed.MaildirHarvester.pollService(MaildirHarvester.java:95) at votorola.a.diff.feed.AbstractPollHarvester.run(AbstractPollHarvester.java:24)
19:38 < conseo> mcallan: weird. 
19:38 < conseo> btw. is votorola just an evolution of textbender or have you shifted your perspective also since then?
19:39 < conseo> i understand that you are interested in utopian literature, and that votorola fits that, but is there something more about it?
19:50 < conseo> mcallan: my archive does not through any errors when being reloaded :-(
19:52 < mcallan> something is different
19:54 < mcallan> votorola's drafting model is a particular application of recombinant text, and maybe the easiest of them to develop. my main interest is still the art applications. but now that includes consensus on the objects of the art.
19:55 < conseo> ok, so while you have focused on e-democracy more you have learned that consensus building is also an important part of recombinantly create art?
19:56 < conseo> i have pushed a small change to log more identifying information about the message which has failed to be put in the db
20:00 < mcallan> it's a pain to pull, build, and restart on that server, and i'm nearly done for the day. i can do maybe once more. or is there an easier way to debug?
20:03 < mcallan> consensus on certain kinds of art has the potential transform civilization, in a way that political consensus cannot. i didn't quite realize that till after i started working on votorola, and reading social theory.
20:04 < conseo> yep i think art is crucial and if we can realize collectively creating art that would be overwhelming
20:04 < conseo> i can reproduce some errors now, i'll ping you once i understand what is wrong
20:05 < mcallan> ok
20:07 < conseo> mcallan: i'd love to do art, i really miss that although i don't know yet how i could express myself meaningfully
20:10 < mcallan> i have no talent for it, but i'd do it all the same if i thought i could survive.
21:15 < mcallan> conseo: i'm off c, cu 2morrow
21:15 < conseo> cu
--- Log closed Wed Mar 16 00:00:36 2011