--- Log opened Sun Feb 27 00:00:25 2011
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--- Log opened Sun Feb 27 12:57:53 2011
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--- Log opened Sun Feb 27 13:16:38 2011
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13:25 < mcallan> conseo: hold off editing crossforum.xht, i'm tearing though it
15:01 < conseo> mcallan: ok, if you have pulled then this is all i have done so far
15:02 < conseo> mcallan: i can login your machine, thx
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15:52 < conseo> mcallan: ping
16:13 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: ping
16:27 < mcallan> conseo: ping
16:27 < conseo> hey
16:28 < conseo> the party stuff is a wall of text. couldn't you have done it with drafting?
16:28 < conseo> seriously this makes browsing and understanding positions much better imo
16:29 < mcallan> you mean the debate between Rohan and I?
16:33 < conseo> i am not too much in the party business, because i think the parliamentary system is only superficial
16:34 < conseo> it is just the form of democracy which fits our economy best
16:36 < mcallan> i am not into parties either, but they are. So we're trying to find a bridge to them
16:39 < conseo> yep sure. i think this is very good, but i just want to deal with all the jurisdictional stuff
16:40 < conseo> it is designed to protect the structures of power so before we can tackle parliament directly we should imo try to get our tools ready for low-level organisation
16:41 < mcallan> our tools are roughly ready for anyone i think, and it's just a question of who's motivated enough to actually use them
16:43 < mcallan> we can afford to say 'no' to someone, i suppose - buy it begs a fork
16:44 < conseo> i support this party effort by any means, it is just that i don't want to organize a party atm.
16:44 < conseo> i'd like to focus on the tools for now
16:44 < mcallan> me too, it would be others who do the admin
16:45 < conseo> ok, cool
16:45 < mcallan> (i was only trying to help them understand the tools)
16:45 < conseo> we should start drafting this staff imo. does anything speaks against it?
16:45 < mcallan> drafting what?
16:46 < conseo> proposals, actions, roadmaps
16:47 < mcallan> political stuff?
16:47 < conseo> instead of a wall of a text, we would get distinct positions and all the benefits of the difference discussing instead of endless threads
16:48 < conseo> not necessarily, we could outline our priorities and they could propose tool usage, organisational perspectives and then fork off our dev wiki
16:48 < conseo> when they are ready...
16:50 < conseo> that way we can keep tool testing and development tied to us until they are ready to run them on their own
16:50 < mcallan> you mean us the only users?
16:51 < mcallan> (sounds like you have a complicated proposal, maybe for skype?)
16:51 < conseo> no us + every possilbe person/organisation interested in leveraging our tools
16:51 < mcallan> but they don
16:51 < mcallan> sorry
16:52 < mcallan> they don't want to read about *our* ideas
16:52 < mcallan> see, it
16:52 < mcallan> sorry again
16:52 < conseo> no that is not what i mean. i mean our perspective for possible applications of our tools
16:53 < conseo> just for the technical "meta"-perspective
16:53 < mcallan> oh, that's arch docs isn it?
16:53 < conseo> we should keep our political preferences back and focus on getting consensus building spread imo
16:54 < mcallan> but it don't need any push - u think it needs a push?
16:54 < conseo> hmmm yep it is, but it is also the development perspective and discussions of the needs for optimal consensus building
16:54 < conseo> i think it makes sense that we join at least the democratical perspective of the interested projects
16:54 < conseo> to understand the tools usage closely
16:55 < mcallan> what problem are u trying to solve?
16:56 < conseo> i don't think we are pure technical in the sense that we share the goal of consensus built action.
16:56 < conseo> i see your doubts
16:56 < conseo> hmmm
16:57 < conseo> i think we should use the tools ourselve to let the tools development also happen on consensus with interested projects
16:58 < mcallan> these might be solutions, but i still don't see the problem (?)
16:59 < mcallan> the problem is ...
17:01 < conseo> that i have difficulties to form a clear perspective on what we do when we discuss stuff like that on mailingslists and dumb threads
17:01 < conseo> i think our tools could be of help to cristalize conclusions and perspectives rather than talking to no end on the list
17:03 < conseo> because interestingly we have the problem that we all seem to share a similar perspective on society, yet we don't really form a consensus and often discuss vaguely, because we don't trust the we really mean the same and are honest
17:04 < conseo> it is not that bad of course, but i think using our tools could help a lot in getting clearer textual positions formed instead of repeating the same arguments again and again in weak terms
17:05 < mcallan> the problem you are chasing is theory, not architecture
17:06 < mcallan> expression of theory *is* a problem
17:06 < conseo> i don't see that as distinct. our architecture is formed through theorgh theory, right?
17:06 < conseo> in fact these concepts are obviously not in practice already
17:08 < conseo> i mean really don't have to join the discussions, but if interested projects/persons can build consensus upon how to spread our tools/ideas it would help us, right?
17:08 < conseo> s/really/we really/
17:09 < conseo> best is metagov i think
17:09 < mcallan> regexps in chat :)
17:09 < mcallan> back up
17:09 < mcallan> spread is the problem?
17:10 < mcallan> or mike shooting off mouth?
17:11 < mcallan> which is closer? :)
17:11 < mcallan> we have to skype, no? w'er wasting time
17:11 < conseo> no it is steering form through content imo. if we can figure out the form of the tools by already building clear consensus on different visions of the projects involved, we will get forms that are really broad and flexible enough for the difficult tasks 
17:11 < conseo> ok we can
17:11 < conseo> but wait a sec.
17:12 < mcallan> ok
17:14 < conseo> ok i hope i am ready
17:23 < mcallan> i lost u
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19:37 < conseo> mcallan: hehe
19:38 < conseo> CrossforumBot: time
19:38 < CrossforumBot> conseo: The time is now Mon Feb 28 01:40:04 CET 2011
19:45 < mcallan> time for me to get my slow-ass in gear, and get this feed working
19:45 < CrossforumBot> mcallan: The time is now Mon Feb 28 01:47:05 CET 2011
19:46 < mcallan> thank you Eliza
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19:49 < conseo> http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
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19:57 < conseo> i really do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
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19:59 < conseo> i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
20:00 < mcallan> (he's talking to his CrossforumBot, pay no attention)
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20:03 < conseo> i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
20:04 -!- CrossforumBot [~PircBot@HSI-KBW-078-042-081-246.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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20:05 < conseo> i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
20:05 < CrossforumBot> Poll: Sys/p/fake, Author: some-user-gnumail-org
20:05 < conseo> mcallan: hehe
20:06 < mcallan> (show off)
20:07 < conseo> how do i ensure string internationalization?
20:09 < mcallan> http://zelea.com/project/votorola/_/javadoc/votorola/g/locale/BundleFormatter.html
20:10 < mcallan> plus http://zelea.com/project/votorola/a/locale/
20:12 < conseo> ok
20:17 < conseo> time
20:17 < CrossforumBot> conseo: The time is now Mon Feb 28 02:18:51 CET 2011
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20:57 < conseo> CrossforumBot: join #cotw
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20:59 < conseo> CrossforumBot: join #cotw
21:00 < conseo> mcallan: this thing is really fun to play with
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21:17 < conseo> i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
21:20 < conseo> CrossforumBot: i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
21:20 < CrossforumBot> Poll: Sys/p/fake
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21:31 < conseo> CrossforumBot: i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
21:31 < CrossforumBot> Poll: Sys/p/fakeAuthor: some-user-gnumail-orgTitle: Discussions around the metagovernment.org project. For concrete questions please join the mailing list: http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/ Current ongoing work towards crossforum setup here: http://metagovernment.tuxfamily.org/crossforum/#c=DumGPosURL: http://tuxfamily.metagovernment.org/posurl.htmlSummary: CrossforumBot: i still d
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21:33 < conseo> CrossforumBot: i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
21:33 < CrossforumBot> Poll: Sys/p/fake Author: some-user-gnumail-org PosURL: http://tuxfamily.metagovernment.org/posurl.html Summary: CrossforumBot: i still do care about this issue: 
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21:36 < conseo> CrossforumBot: i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
21:36 < CrossforumBot> Poll: Sys/p/fake Author: some-user-gnumail-org URL: http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/ Summary: CrossforumBot: i still do care about this issue: 
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21:36 < conseo> CrossforumBot: i still do care about this issue: http://u.zelea.com:8080/v/w/D?b=4048&a=4042&aR=2706&bR=2722
21:36 < CrossforumBot> Poll: Sys/p/fake Author: some-user-gnumail-org URL: irc://irc.freenode.net/#metagov Summary: CrossforumBot: i still do care about this issue: 
21:37 < conseo> huhu the irc url shortcut works
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22:58 < conseo> ok going to bed now
22:58 < conseo> n8
23:01 < mcallan> n8
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23:14 < conseo> now the output is also parseable by pisg. n8
--- Log closed Mon Feb 28 00:00:44 2011
--- Log closed Mon Feb 28 00:41:12 2011
--- Log closed Mon Feb 28 00:41:23 2011